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More comments/Apollo & Midnighter

Another great update

Connor Hawke, aka Green Arrow II, the REAL story...

ICE vs. ICEMAIDEN and others

Welcome to THE LIST DISCUSSION BOARDS

WHO CARES ABOUT THE DEATH OF A GAY SUPERHERO ANYWAY?
Back to list

Monday, January 7, 2008

I really like this post, because I think I really failed to mention my great love and respect for the characters Midnighter & Apollo in The Authority. Yes, there has been some homophobic reactions to their popularity among their parent corporation, but these two characters rock. Read on. A very intelligent comment...
--p

"chandler_paul@yahoo.com"
Comments on "Who cares about the death of a gay superhero anyway".

I really enjoyed the list you compiled. I think it was important to only showcase Marvel and DC books as they encompass the majority of superhero books. However a message at the bottom of the blog that would point readers to positive examples outside the superhero universe (i.e. Stangers in Paradise).

My only argument stems from Apollo and Midnighter. I am a huge fan of The Authority and especially Midnighter. I have not read every single issue they've appeared in, but the major arcs that I have read allowed them to be positive gay examples. Positive meaning affectionate, yet not stereotypical and still bad-ass. They're entire team kills people. I thought it was wrong to point our the "countless" number of people they've killed in the book. They actions reflect the tone of the series. You would have just labeled them "wimps" if they didn't stand up and fight. Also, in Midnighter's solo series, Apollo makes many guest appearances and more than often they are very positive and loving. It's a SOLO series, so why should Apollo be in it constantly when they are trying to focus on Midnighter. Althrough a Mid/Appollo series might not be a bad idea.

Well, that's all my thoughts at the moment. I am convinced that "Hero" is going to be a good read, so I can't wait to pick it up at the store.

Take Care,
Chandler Poling
Editor
www.luckylegendary.com

Here's another great update from an insightful fan. The List keeps getting better and better with your help. Keep the feedback coming!
--Perry

"tonysmith@queeroes.com" 12/31/07
I love your list, however there is one glaring inaccuracy.

"NBC’S “HEROES”
Popular television series nixes appearance of minor gay supporting character before show airs. Claire’s friend Zach was intended to be a gay character, with episodes planned for him, but his character was pulled from the show altogether."

If you research the story further, you'll find that it was the actor who played Zach that refused to portray a gay character. The writers, producers, etc. set up all the ground work for Zach to be gay, but the actor refused. That's why he was nixed from the show as well. Why they haven't followed up with another gay character, I can't tell you...but the original game plan was for Zach to be gay until the actor refused.

Wednesday, November 7, 2007

Dear Mr. Moore,

I'm an avid Connor Hawke fan and reading your list I noted that you said Connor Hawke was alluded to as being homosexual in Kevin Smith's run. I was wondering where you got that idea from?

My understanding of the situation is as follows:

Connor Hawke is not a homosexual retconned straight. Connor Hawke was created by Kelley Puckett and Jim Aparo. They never got to his sexuality. Chuck Dixon and Aparo and later Rudolpho DiMaggio worked on Connor Hawke after that. Because of Connor's asian heritiage he was slight, smaller and thinner than Ollie, added to that was his lack of horn dog ways, especially in the early comics fans begain to speculate. Ollie was basically slutting himself out to the Eden Corps and Dixon was drawing a distinction between Connor and Ollie, basically trying to show that Connor had personal values as a deeply religious and spiritual person.

DC editorial Carlin and Dooley discussed Connor Hawke kissing Kyle Rayner in the Emerald Allies storyline. Chuck Dixon was extremely opposed to this, and the resulting issue was that Connor is unsure about his sexuality-line at the diner with Kyle, because he didnt grow up around alot of women. Which just furthered homosexual speculation.

Dixon, still very opposed to Connor being viewed as a homosexual, has Connor sleep with Lady Wren an ancient chinese ghost, and kiss his tennant Mia with commentary between Eddie Fryers and Master Jansen.

Kevin Smith has Connor declare he is not gay to Ollie when asked, "I like girls... Geez, just because a guy ain't you."

Judd Winick has had Connor make out with Mia Durden, and in the "boys night out" one shot Connor says he isnt gay, he is just a romantic to Roy.

And in one of the creepiest scenes I've ever read Connor makes out with Shado in his recent mini.

At no time did Connor have sexual relations with a man, he has not kissed a man, he has not expressed interest in kissing men. And no writer to my knowledge has written Connor as being homosexual.

There was no retcon, and while it was considered according to Dixon, he fought against it as the writer of GA and won.

If I missed something, and Connor Hawke did have homosexual tendencies that were retconned out, I would really appreicate the issue number, page(s) and panel(s).

I am not a homophobe but I am an avid fan, If I missed something as fundemental as this I really like to know. Personally I always thought someone who was a Zen Buddihist monk like Connor would know himself better than most, and he had the most liberal parents ever created.(Its even implied in Smith's run that Ollie is so accepting of homosexuals he has a blind spot with regards to them.) If he was a closet homosexual, I'd think he would have come out, but I dont recall that ever happening.

If it did and they retconned it away I'd really like to know. If not perhaps you could edit your list to reflect that.

Either way thank you for your time in reading the ramblings of a Connor Fan.

Sincerely,

Alex

Dear Alex,

Thanks for taking the time to write such a well thought-out letter.
Incredibly informative. I'd love to print it on the site about the
superhero list, as it sheds a lot of light on the subject. I actually
find it even more disturbing that there was a storyline where some
people wanted the young Green Arrow to be gay, and others fought it, and won! I'm a
huge fan of Connor Hawke too. How disappointing. He would have been
an excellent role model in light of such disasters as Freedom Ring

By the way, have you had a chance to read HERO?

All the best,

Perry Moore

Dear Mr. Moore,

Thank you for responding to my email. I completely agree that Connor Hawke could have been an interesting and engaging homosexual character. Had they gone with that direction early on then I think it would have worked extremely well. At this point I think the ship has sailed though, with Dixon Smith and Winick all establishing him as straight. As far as that storyline, as I recall Dixon was really big at DC at the time, writing most of the Batman related titles, so I could see how he could win that fight. Plus I think Dixon (this is my personal opinion I have not seen any interviews to this effect) was annoyed that fans kept speculating Connor was homosexual when he was trying to show morality and religion (not that one precludes the other in my opinion). He has written homosexual characters (Midnighter/Apollo, and he is taking over Batman and the Outsiders which has Grace and Thunder), but in the face of fans proclaiming his writing is saying one thing when he meant another, I think really bugged him. Which I think may have played a part in him showing Connor making out with Shado, who had raped Ollie when Mike Grell was writing Green Arrow.

Feel free to post my email to you on your site. I'm glad I took the time to write. I have not checked out Heroe yet but reading the description I am intrigued. Maybe when I have a bit more free time I'll give it a shot.

Sincerely,

Alex

Thanks, Alex. Keep those comments, questions, and updates coming. Anyone else out there have more information on the Green Arrow backstory?
--Perry

Tuesday, October 23, 2007

I'm very grateful that many of you have pointed out that I confused Ice with Icemaiden, both heroes with similar powers and affiliations. Ice is not a lesbian, Icemaiden was one of DC's first bisexual characters. Appparently, her fate (i.e. having her skin flayed off) isn't much better than Ice's. Although Ice, who is straight, has recently been resurrected in Birds of Prey.

If anyone can tell me more about the fate of Icemaiden, I'd love to know. That flaying of the skin-thing sounds particularly gruesome. Does anyone know in which issue that happened? And is she back?

Here's a letter that sheds light on the subject very well...

Dear Perry Moore,
Thank you for making this list. There are just a few updates that might need to be made. In the Scandal & Knockout entry, Knockout was recently killed (she got a hole blown through her stomach), and last Scandal was seen she was drunk, got shot, and was kidnapped.
Also, Ice was recently reincarnated, although I'm not sure if she was gay. Three was a similar character named Icemaiden who took Ice's place for a while and was bisexual, but her skin was flayed off and shes now comatose.
Poison Ivy, the super villain from Batman may also warrant a place on your list. There's huge amounts of fan speculation on a relationship with Harley Quinn, she kissed Supergirl once, there's supposedly visual innuendo in Batman: the Animated Series and in the Harley and Ivy mini-comic with her and Harley Quinn. She also at one point tells Catwoman that "no man or woman can resist her", and many of her powers center on seduction. This could maybe be a point in that I don't think its never openly expressed that Ivy is gay or bisexual, and so far nothing too horrendous has happened to her, to my knowledge at least.
I think that you and Gail Simone trying to raise awarness of this and compiling information is wonderful, thank you.
And to veer away from the subject of your list for a few lines, thank you for writing Hero. Its one of the few "Teen" books I've read and enjoyed. You din't use "teen" stereotypes, or patronize us and try to dumb down the language and themes for our apparently tiny little brains. This is on top of it being an all around wonderful book. So once again, thank you.

WHO CARES ABOUT THE DEATH OF A GAY SUPERHERO ANYWAY?
Back to list

Monday, January 7, 2008
More comments/Apollo & Midnighter
I really like this post, because I think I really failed to mention my great love and respect for the characters Midnighter & Apollo in The Authority. Yes, there has been some homophobic reactions to their popularity among their parent corporation, but these two characters rock. Read on. A very intelligent comment...
--p

"chandler_paul@yahoo.com"
Comments on "Who cares about the death of a gay superhero anyway".

I really enjoyed the list you compiled. I think it was important to only showcase Marvel and DC books as they encompass the majority of superhero books. However a message at the bottom of the blog that would point readers to positive examples outside the superhero universe (i.e. Stangers in Paradise).

My only argument stems from Apollo and Midnighter. I am a huge fan of The Authority and especially Midnighter. I have not read every single issue they've appeared in, but the major arcs that I have read allowed them to be positive gay examples. Positive meaning affectionate, yet not stereotypical and still bad-ass. They're entire team kills people. I thought it was wrong to point our the "countless" number of people they've killed in the book. They actions reflect the tone of the series. You would have just labeled them "wimps" if they didn't stand up and fight. Also, in Midnighter's solo series, Apollo makes many guest appearances and more than often they are very positive and loving. It's a SOLO series, so why should Apollo be in it constantly when they are trying to focus on Midnighter. Althrough a Mid/Appollo series might not be a bad idea.

Well, that's all my thoughts at the moment. I am convinced that "Hero" is going to be a good read, so I can't wait to pick it up at the store.

Take Care,
Chandler Poling
Editor
www.luckylegendary.com
posted by Perry at 5:41 PM

Another great update
Here's another great update from an insightful fan. The List keeps getting better and better with your help. Keep the feedback coming!
--Perry

"tonysmith@queeroes.com" 12/31/07
I love your list, however there is one glaring inaccuracy.

"NBC’S “HEROES”
Popular television series nixes appearance of minor gay supporting character before show airs. Claire’s friend Zach was intended to be a gay character, with episodes planned for him, but his character was pulled from the show altogether."

If you research the story further, you'll find that it was the actor who played Zach that refused to portray a gay character. The writers, producers, etc. set up all the ground work for Zach to be gay, but the actor refused. That's why he was nixed from the show as well. Why they haven't followed up with another gay character, I can't tell you...but the original game plan was for Zach to be gay until the actor refused.
posted by Perry at 5:37 PM

Wednesday, November 7, 2007
Connor Hawke, aka Green Arrow II, the REAL story...
Dear Mr. Moore,

I'm an avid Connor Hawke fan and reading your list I noted that you said Connor Hawke was alluded to as being homosexual in Kevin Smith's run. I was wondering where you got that idea from?

My understanding of the situation is as follows:

Connor Hawke is not a homosexual retconned straight. Connor Hawke was created by Kelley Puckett and Jim Aparo. They never got to his sexuality. Chuck Dixon and Aparo and later Rudolpho DiMaggio worked on Connor Hawke after that. Because of Connor's asian heritiage he was slight, smaller and thinner than Ollie, added to that was his lack of horn dog ways, especially in the early comics fans begain to speculate. Ollie was basically slutting himself out to the Eden Corps and Dixon was drawing a distinction between Connor and Ollie, basically trying to show that Connor had personal values as a deeply religious and spiritual person.

DC editorial Carlin and Dooley discussed Connor Hawke kissing Kyle Rayner in the Emerald Allies storyline. Chuck Dixon was extremely opposed to this, and the resulting issue was that Connor is unsure about his sexuality-line at the diner with Kyle, because he didnt grow up around alot of women. Which just furthered homosexual speculation.

Dixon, still very opposed to Connor being viewed as a homosexual, has Connor sleep with Lady Wren an ancient chinese ghost, and kiss his tennant Mia with commentary between Eddie Fryers and Master Jansen.

Kevin Smith has Connor declare he is not gay to Ollie when asked, "I like girls... Geez, just because a guy ain't you."

Judd Winick has had Connor make out with Mia Durden, and in the "boys night out" one shot Connor says he isnt gay, he is just a romantic to Roy.

And in one of the creepiest scenes I've ever read Connor makes out with Shado in his recent mini.

At no time did Connor have sexual relations with a man, he has not kissed a man, he has not expressed interest in kissing men. And no writer to my knowledge has written Connor as being homosexual.

There was no retcon, and while it was considered according to Dixon, he fought against it as the writer of GA and won.

If I missed something, and Connor Hawke did have homosexual tendencies that were retconned out, I would really appreicate the issue number, page(s) and panel(s).

I am not a homophobe but I am an avid fan, If I missed something as fundemental as this I really like to know. Personally I always thought someone who was a Zen Buddihist monk like Connor would know himself better than most, and he had the most liberal parents ever created.(Its even implied in Smith's run that Ollie is so accepting of homosexuals he has a blind spot with regards to them.) If he was a closet homosexual, I'd think he would have come out, but I dont recall that ever happening.

If it did and they retconned it away I'd really like to know. If not perhaps you could edit your list to reflect that.

Either way thank you for your time in reading the ramblings of a Connor Fan.

Sincerely,

Alex

Dear Alex,

Thanks for taking the time to write such a well thought-out letter.
Incredibly informative. I'd love to print it on the site about the
superhero list, as it sheds a lot of light on the subject. I actually
find it even more disturbing that there was a storyline where some
people wanted the young Green Arrow to be gay, and others fought it, and won! I'm a
huge fan of Connor Hawke too. How disappointing. He would have been
an excellent role model in light of such disasters as Freedom Ring

By the way, have you had a chance to read HERO?

All the best,

Perry Moore

Dear Mr. Moore,

Thank you for responding to my email. I completely agree that Connor Hawke could have been an interesting and engaging homosexual character. Had they gone with that direction early on then I think it would have worked extremely well. At this point I think the ship has sailed though, with Dixon Smith and Winick all establishing him as straight. As far as that storyline, as I recall Dixon was really big at DC at the time, writing most of the Batman related titles, so I could see how he could win that fight. Plus I think Dixon (this is my personal opinion I have not seen any interviews to this effect) was annoyed that fans kept speculating Connor was homosexual when he was trying to show morality and religion (not that one precludes the other in my opinion). He has written homosexual characters (Midnighter/Apollo, and he is taking over Batman and the Outsiders which has Grace and Thunder), but in the face of fans proclaiming his writing is saying one thing when he meant another, I think really bugged him. Which I think may have played a part in him showing Connor making out with Shado, who had raped Ollie when Mike Grell was writing Green Arrow.

Feel free to post my email to you on your site. I'm glad I took the time to write. I have not checked out Heroe yet but reading the description I am intrigued. Maybe when I have a bit more free time I'll give it a shot.

Sincerely,

Alex

Thanks, Alex. Keep those comments, questions, and updates coming. Anyone else out there have more information on the Green Arrow backstory?
--Perry
posted by Perry at 2:24 PM

Tuesday, October 23, 2007
ICE vs. ICEMAIDEN and others
I'm very grateful that many of you have pointed out that I confused Ice with Icemaiden, both heroes with similar powers and affiliations. Ice is not a lesbian, Icemaiden was one of DC's first bisexual characters. Appparently, her fate (i.e. having her skin flayed off) isn't much better than Ice's. Although Ice, who is straight, has recently been resurrected in Birds of Prey.

If anyone can tell me more about the fate of Icemaiden, I'd love to know. That flaying of the skin-thing sounds particularly gruesome. Does anyone know in which issue that happened? And is she back?

Here's a letter that sheds light on the subject very well...

Dear Perry Moore,
Thank you for making this list. There are just a few updates that might need to be made. In the Scandal & Knockout entry, Knockout was recently killed (she got a hole blown through her stomach), and last Scandal was seen she was drunk, got shot, and was kidnapped.
Also, Ice was recently reincarnated, although I'm not sure if she was gay. Three was a similar character named Icemaiden who took Ice's place for a while and was bisexual, but her skin was flayed off and shes now comatose.
Poison Ivy, the super villain from Batman may also warrant a place on your list. There's huge amounts of fan speculation on a relationship with Harley Quinn, she kissed Supergirl once, there's supposedly visual innuendo in Batman: the Animated Series and in the Harley and Ivy mini-comic with her and Harley Quinn. She also at one point tells Catwoman that "no man or woman can resist her", and many of her powers center on seduction. This could maybe be a point in that I don't think its never openly expressed that Ivy is gay or bisexual, and so far nothing too horrendous has happened to her, to my knowledge at least.
I think that you and Gail Simone trying to raise awarness of this and compiling information is wonderful, thank you.
And to veer away from the subject of your list for a few lines, thank you for writing Hero. Its one of the few "Teen" books I've read and enjoyed. You din't use "teen" stereotypes, or patronize us and try to dumb down the language and themes for our apparently tiny little brains. This is on top of it being an all around wonderful book. So once again, thank you.
posted by Perry at 12:01 PM

Welcome to THE LIST DISCUSSION BOARDS
Hi, everyone,

Welcome to the discussion boards for the list, "Who Cares about the Death of a Gay Superhero?" Boy, do I love comic book fans. We are rabid in our appreciation and opinions. It's one of the things that makes the genre so special. My catalogue of GLBT superheroes and villians in comic books over the years turned out to have some very interesting effects. Many welcomed and praised it. Others have been great in pointing out some of the innacuracies and oversights. I want to invite everyone to particpate: this is our list. I wrote it subjectively, but I'd rather maintain it as an accurate document with the sincere hope that things will get better. I do understand that bad things happen to all comic book characters -- gay or straight, male of female, black or white. But I still pose the question: are there enough positive representations of GLBT superheroes to balance out the negative ones?

Please help us keep the list updated. All thoughts are welcome and appreciated!

Aim high!

Perry
posted by Perry at 11:39 AM

Copyright © 2007 Perry Moore, All Rights Reserved

Hi, everyone,

Welcome to the discussion boards for the list, "Who Cares about the Death of a Gay Superhero?" Boy, do I love comic book fans. We are rabid in our appreciation and opinions. It's one of the things that makes the genre so special. My catalogue of GLBT superheroes and villians in comic books over the years turned out to have some very interesting effects. Many welcomed and praised it. Others have been great in pointing out some of the innacuracies and oversights. I want to invite everyone to particpate: this is our list. I wrote it subjectively, but I'd rather maintain it as an accurate document with the sincere hope that things will get better. I do understand that bad things happen to all comic book characters -- gay or straight, male of female, black or white. But I still pose the question: are there enough positive representations of GLBT superheroes to balance out the negative ones?

Please help us keep the list updated. All thoughts are welcome and appreciated!

Aim high!

Perry